‘I Used to Be Very Combative’: How Starring in ‘Civil War’ Changed His Politics

If you see the movie Civil War in downtown Washington — and spoiler alert here — the scenes of the Lincoln Memorial exploding and the White House being attacked are jarring and will stay with you after you exit the theater.

The movie is a very in-your-face attempt to imagine the unimaginable in America: an authoritarian leader in power, intractable political differences being resolved through violence, and the specific horrors of modern warfare, including urban fighting, refugee camps and mass atrocities.

Civil War is also a movie about journalism. It follows four reporters traveling the country and tackles media ethics, political polarization and the disinformation polluting our media ecosystem.

Wagner Moura, one of Civil War’s stars, plays a hardened war correspondent addicted to the battlefield, and I sat down with him for this week’s episode of Playbook Deep Dive just as Washington’s annual White House Correspondents Association Dinner festivities were getting underway. That’s the time of year when the relationship between journalists, politicians and Hollywood is at its peak in this town, so it seemed fitting.

Moura is best known for his role as Pablo Escobar in Narcos. But he’s also a former journalist, a political activist and a writer and director himself. His 2019 movie Marighella, about the coup and counter-revolution in Brazil in the 1960s, incurred the wrath of then-president Jair Bolsonaro in Moura’s home country of Brazil.

In a wide-ranging conversation, Mauro discussed how making a movie about a new civil war changed his own personal thinking about politics, how his experience with Bolsonaro in Brazil is a warning for Americans, and why authoritarians are quick to target art and artists.

This conversation has been edited for length and clarity with help from Deep Dive producer Kara Tabor.

Wagner, so if I seem a little shaken, it’s because I've watched this movie twice now in the last 14 hours. I don't recommend that because it has a certain effect on you, especially if you live in Washington. It's a jarring movie. Do you remember the first time you watched it all the way through and what your reaction was?

It was a very strong experience. I like to say that this film causes cognitive dissonance. I think especially for the American audiences, but I think that for everybody, because the images that we are used to seeing with Hollywood and with their dream industry, the fantasy industry, those images usually take place in the Middle East, in Africa, in South America and Asia.

Obviously there have been movies made where cities that we're all familiar with get blown up. But there's something about the way that this movie's done that brings home that reality. And a big part of the movie is the “If you don't think it can happen here, here's how it could happen here” theme. Talk about that a little bit. Tell me about what you all were trying to do with the hammering into an — especially an American — audience that we're not so insulated from the kind of trauma and conflict that we only see abroad on CNN.

No nation is immune. Throughout history, every nation, all democracies can [experience conflict]. And right now, especially now, I think.

I like political films, and I wouldn't say that they would make a change or anything, but I think they're important. I directed only one movie in my life. It's this film called Marighella, which is a film about the ones who resisted the Brazilian dictatorship that we had there back in the 60s and the 70s. So it is a very political film.

I want to talk about Marighella.

But Marighella is a film about a very specific time in history. It's a film that it's hard not to choose a side.

Right. And you have a clear point of view as a director.

Exactly. I have a very clear point of view and never denied it. And the film, which is a film about the 60s and the 70s, became censored under Bolsonaro in Brazil.

I was going to ask you about that later, but since we're on it, let's talk about that, because it seems so relevant to some of the themes of Civil War and what's going on in the United States right now.

We can speak about that deeply. But I just want to say that in comparison to Civil War, [director] Alex Garland managed to do a film that doesn't have an ideological agenda. I know he has his own political views, but he puts all that aside and he makes a film about the aftermath of a polarized situation and how dangerous that can be.

I'm convinced that polarization is the biggest threat to democracies in the world nowadays. And I myself changed because I used to be very combative. I'm a progressive, left-wing man. And I really, really think that it is now time to start to build bridges and to listen to each other. I have been studying this, what are the things that would make it possible for a country to have a social convulsion?

Was it something you studied to prepare for this movie or just generally because you're a politically active, engaged person? Or both?

Both. But of course, when I knew that I was going to make a film about this, I jumped deeper in that. And that scared me. Just what I was reading from scholars. That scared me immediately.

It sounds like it's made you maybe a little less ideological.

I still have very strong convictions. I'm still a man who believes in social justice and all the things that gravitate around that idea. The extreme right in Brazil came up in a very strong way and it was really fast because, after the dictatorship, like in ’85 during the democratic movement, the country finally had elected the president. As we had a right-wing dictatorship and our Constitution is very progressive, it made us think in Brazil that we were living in a dream world of progressiveness.

But Brazil is a country that is built upon lots of violence and racism and elitism. So when Bolsonaro got elected, he was not an alien that came from outer space. He’s deeply grounded in the history of the country. And we all had to face that battle in a very strong way because it took us sort of off guard.

That's really interesting, because it is similar to the United States in the sense that by the end of the Obama era, you could find a lot of pundits talking about how a Republican couldn't win the White House again, because there was a natural Democratic majority and that progressivism reigned. But there's always a backlash.

Yeah, exactly. But so in that moment, I had to be, we all had to be, very combative. I still believe in everything that made me the political person that I am. But I really think that it's time to build bridges. And when I speak with my friends, they go “How is that even possible? Because the polarization got to a point where we think, “We hate them. They hate us.” And we have to talk about journalism here, because of the importance of journalism and the spread of fake news and the crazy narratives. It's just isolating these two groups as never before in history. So it's getting harder.

For people who haven't seen the movie, it really is a movie about journalism, photojournalism. You're one of the two print reporters of the core four that we follow through the journey from New York City and the circuitous route to Washington, D.C. Joel is a war reporter, adrenaline junkie who is addicted to this kind of combat coverage. After leaving one of the many horrific, firefights in the movie, you have this ecstatic reaction where you're like “Holy fucking shit, what a fucking rush.” How did you learn the business enough and learn the psyche of that kind of journalist to play it?

I graduated as a journalist. I worked as a journalist for a while. Most of my friends are journalists, in my hometown, Salvador, and other parts of Brazil. I had played the journalist before in a series called Shining Girls. I played an investigative journalist, which made me so happy. I have such admiration for journalists. And then I met this guy from the Chicago Sun-Times, an amazing journalist. So I was talking to him.

But war journalism is another thing. I read a lot about it, because many of these journalists wrote books about their experiences in the field, and I read many of those biographies, but I spoke with some of them. What I wanted to know from them was less how they did their job in the field. It was more like “What was the feeling of being a civilian in the war?”

They were able to articulate very precisely the feeling of being in a war zone. It's very similar to being a soldier. And also like you said, the traumas. It's kind of sad because at the same time, they're doing such an important job of bringing information and stories and images that are going to desensitize our souls to the horror of war. But at the same time, these people, there's a very sad element in that because they experienced something so extraordinary in the war zone. The horror and the beauty of the camera. The friendships. It's so strong that when they come back home, their lives just stop making sense. So they need to go back to that place so their lives can still make sense.

And I'm just curious what you've picked up in terms of the reactions from that world and how you think about those questions.

I've met some journalists that came to me and said — this is the best compliment for an actor — “This is exactly what it is. You captured what we felt. This is it. This is journalism and the importance of journalism for democracy and the crisis that journalism is going through right now that we should definitely talk about.” I think that Alex knew what he was talking about when he wrote these characters because they're very common. Like Lee [played by Kirsten Dunst], for example. Lee is going through [this period where she’s lost her faith in journalism]. And Joel knows that what's happening to Lee can happen to him too.

He's not there yet though?

He's not there. And he knows that this is dangerous. So he lights up. He makes everything happy and easy and lighter. He’s fighting that feeling that he knows can destroy him as well the way it did to Lee.

You experienced something in Brazil that is beyond what I can think of any journalist in the United States experiencing. Tell us what happened under Bolsonaro with your movie Marighella.

Marighella is a film about this legendary leader of the armed resistance against a dictatorship. And Bolsonaro always praised the dictatorship. This guy who tortured many people in that time called Carlos Brilhante Ustra — Bolsonaro is openly a fan of that guy.

This was after a time in Brazilian history where this was viewed as a terrible time and he was seen as a leader to be rejected and condemned. Bolsonaro tried to rehabilitate him.

Absolutely. He celebrates the day of the coup d'etat, which is crazy. We cannot laugh about anything anymore. Bolsonaro used to be a joke back in 2000 and… No one really could foresee that that guy could become the president of the country.

Sounds familiar.

I know. The film was released in Berlin in 2019. And right after that, we just couldn't have the film premiered. We faced all kinds of boycotts and not only open boycotts but him empowering his followers to be aggressive to the actors and to myself.

Not only that, but in Brazil, we were still very dependent on the state in terms of when we release a movie. There was this agency called ANCINE, the state agency that liberates funds in order for you to release your movie. And all the paths suddenly got closed to us, and no one could explain what was going on until the moment that I openly went to the newspaper and said, “This is censorship. They are openly censoring my film.” So in 2019, the film was released in Berlin, and I could only release the film in Brazil in 2021, which is crazy.

But Bolsonaro lost in 2022, right?

Yeah, he was still there. But it was his last year in power. All the progressive people in Brazil all supported the film. It was a battle and I wasn't afraid of that, and I really did it. I'm proud of it and I'm proud of the film. It's interesting how a film is a mix of what you want to say as an artist, with the time that this particular art form is being seen. If I had released this film like 10 years ago, it would have had another reaction from the audiences. It's the same with Civil War when people ask me “Oh it’s going to be released in the election year?” and I go “Yeah. This is how it is.” But with Marighella, it was tough, man. We got many death threats.

I was going to ask personally what was the level of pain?

It was hardcore. It was very hard. In many places we had to have lots of security. It's this polarized moment, when you see people that invaded the Capitol and people that did the same in Brazil. It's people that have been told for many years through their social media or WhatsApp or whatever, especially when they have their leaders as supreme leaders empowering them with the speech of violence based on false narratives. That is very scary, man.

The things that Bolsonaro says or the things that Trump says, if you apply any simple fact check to the things that they do, that they say, they lie all the time. This is what scares me most nowadays, is that the truth as we know it is over, especially with the advance of AI and all that. That's very scary.

Let me ask you a question. There's been so much written and discussed about comparisons of Bolsonaro and Trump. As someone who's had this experience with Bolsonaro and his government trying to prevent your film from being seen, and as an American citizen who lives in the States, what are some insights that you've had when you compare the two leaders?

Very similar. Both are countries that are built upon immigration and with people from different parts of the world, making their countries what they are, but they’re countries that are also built upon very conservative and violent forces. Racism is a thing both in Brazil and in the U.S. They manifest in different ways, but they are equally strong.

I think that Bolsonaro and Trump, they had different upbringings, but they emerged as forces that represent the part of our histories that I personally think are the worst parts of American and Brazilian histories. And when you mention the sanctions that Bolsonaro has been facing in Brazil, I think that the fact that we were under a dictatorship back in the 60s and the 70s made Brazil act faster in terms of…

Interesting. They knew this history.

We are a younger democracy full of problems and all that, but we know how bad a dictatorship is. It's interesting how it was exactly the same thing: two election deniers empowering their followers to act violently. It's the same thing. But Brazil acted really fast and sent people to jail, finding the financiers, and even Bolsonaro himself. He lost his political powers. He can’t get elected.

He’s banned.

He’s banned.

Until 2030, right?

Exactly. And he's facing lots of charges and everything. And I think in the West, things didn't move as fast as they should have. Democracy is not a given. It's really not. And I think that's not something that Americans are fully aware of. I think somehow Americans take democracy for granted, not because of anything, but because you don't know how horrible an authoritarian government can be.

There are a few important scenes and characters in the movie. I want to get your impressions on them. The first is the president in the movie. Now, this is a character Alex Garland created, of course. What's your view of who he was drawing on? Who do you see in the president?

To connect that character to Donald Trump or to any real character? Being very honest with you, I don't think that this is fair to what the film wants to say. The film really doesn't pick a side. You know, that president could easily be a Democratic president. And who knows.

Interesting. So that's important to all of you that made this movie, is to not put it in one of those boxes?

Exactly. Again as opposed to Marighella, right? That's like a film that is openly [political]. It gives names. In this one, it's not about picking a side. And as you can see, sometimes it's very hard for me to do that. But again, I think it's time to build bridges.

The most memorable scene in the movie I think by far, although I think it competes with the destruction of D.C., is the scene where Jesse Plemons, who happens to be Kirsten Dunst’s husband, has a really incredible performance and asks you this defining question of the movie. You say, “We are American.” You're trying to save your two colleagues. And he says, “What kind of American are you?” I'm curious about the reactions that you've seen to that scene and how you've processed it now that the movie's out in the world. I'd also like you to talk about what it was like to perform that day. I understand it was pretty harrowing.

It was the hardest scene for me to play. I had a very emotional reaction to that after. We shot it for two entire days. It was hot and Jesse kept asking me what kind of American I am and that really made me think what kind of American I am. And not only about myself, but about people like me, like people that live here and immigrants. It's the amount of racism that summarizes all that we've been talking about here about the film, the craziness and absurdity of it all.

What do you mean, “What kind of American are you?” These are Americans. It’s Brazilians, Americans and that's it and that's the whole point of the movie. There's no different kinds of Americans. There is the American people. And that's what we have to start thinking about. That's what I started thinking about more and more and more, even when I deal with people that are in a completely opposite political spectrum, those are other Americans, those are Brazilians, those are human beings. I don't want to be naive or anything, but when you talk about war, the first thing that happens in the war zone is you have to dehumanize the other so you can make all kinds of atrocities. If it's not human, then you can do whatever you want.

The people that invaded the Capitol and the people that invaded — of course there are criminals there too, but some of those people are good people, are people that really went there thinking that they were doing something patriotic, that they were doing something important.

I remember a moment in Brazilian history, after the democratization, that you would talk to people from the other parties and you would have discussions in the bar and no one wanted to kill anyone. You disagreed and you could even get heated. But it was like soccer. It got heated, but you don't hate the other person. You don't think the other person is a criminal, he's a bandit or anything like that.

I think that scene summarizes a lot of what the film is about. After the second day of shooting, I just cried. I laid down in the grass and cried a lot. It hit me hard in that level that I couldn't even say exactly what it is

People will be mad at me if I don't ask you anything about playing Pablo Escobar in Narcos, which is where a lot of American audiences probably know you best from. Just a silly question, which is what's your favorite sad Pablo meme that ever was produced on the internet? 

I love all of them. I think it's so funny. Every one that I read, I think it's funny. In Brazil, there's one that was like “When people realized Carnival is about to end” and he’s sad like that. I love those memes. I think it's really funny.

Between Narcos and Marighella and now this movie, maybe Narcos a little bit less, but these are three big or at least two of them are very big political statement films. Marighella for sure. Civil War for sure. Do you see film and art in general as having the ability to spark conversations that can make change in a way that maybe journalism can't or has that not been your experience with these three projects we talked about?

I think so. Listen, talking about dictatorships again. Every authoritarian government, the first three things that they want to shut down are journalism, universities, and art and artists. Because these three pillars, they ground you with reality and it makes you think.

I think Shakespeare is political. I've learned so much about politics with Shakespeare, maybe more than anything else. I don't know exactly the practical result because art is not about [practicalities] at all. It's “What is this for? I don't know.” When we talk about dehumanization, if you have inside of your soul the spark of poetry, I think that this is something that makes us more connected to others and more human, or at least more connected to ourselves. And the questions that don't have answers: “Why? Why are we here? What are we doing here? What is life about?” Art doesn't have an explanation for that, but it makes it easier. I really think everything is political. Every art is sort of political. If it changes you, if it changes in your inner self or if it sparks conversations, it is political. But political films, I think they're very important. I love them aesthetically. I love them and I connect with them very strongly.

Wagner, we have a weird thing where our last question is always proposed by our last guest.This question comes from Congressman Tom Cole, who's the new chairman of the House Appropriations Committee. Why did you get into this business that you're in? He meant politics. But you can answer it more broadly. And then I want you to give a question for our next guest. 

So, I didn't feel that I was particularly talented or anything. I was only 15. But I remember the day when I walked into a room full of actors and artists that I was like, I felt that I wanted to hang out with them. That was my kind of people, that was my tribe. So that's how it began. And I think that I still do it because I don't think I can do anything else. [Laughs.] But a better explanation, a more beautiful explanation would be that these films that I've been doing, these plays, really made me learn a lot about myself and made me a better person. I don't think it's selfish to say that I do it first for myself. If it makes sense for myself, if it sparks a change in myself, I think it would do something with other people.

So the question to the next guest. Wow, I wasn't expecting that. Let me think… What is truth for you? What is the truth and what's the importance of the truth nowadays in this polarized world with different narratives? Because this is something that I've been really thinking about. I think that we are losing track, losing contact with the facts and that's what journalism is about. And I hope that journalism can survive this crisis that's going on.

Listen to this episode of Playbook Deep Dive on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.